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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 20, 2007 20:39:50 GMT 1
I can't wait! Here are 3 views of the wildlife garden today. The concrete pad will house 3 raised hexagonal ponds for "dipping". The largest will be approx 60" diameter, the other two are 42" approx. The garden is fenced and hedged and contains one large crab apple tree to the right of the top photo which is covered in ivy.    Plans include the usual things such as feeding stations, log piles and overwintering habitat tower. I am also hoping to be able to include a bird box with hidden camera. As you can see it's quite a big space - I'm not good at these things but I'd say it's at least 70' X 50'. Big enough! It already has a good selection of grasses and some wild flowers but I'm hoping to grow foxgloves, scabious, meadow cranesbill, primroses, cowslips (we have a bank to the left behind the new fence) etc and some bulbs for Spring next year. I'm waiting for your thoughts everybody! |
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Post by sweetleaf on Feb 20, 2007 20:51:55 GMT 1
That looks a lot bigger than I thoought! ;D And the ponds sound like just the thing, who poured the slab for you? they did an excellent job! ;D I cant wait to see it come together ;D You should be very proud 4P, you have begun something wonderful   |
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 20, 2007 20:59:53 GMT 1
Innit exciting! (I'm cheered up thinking about it  ). The slab was built by a Dad at school who's a landscape builder - he's really good about doing things at cost! We are going to start building the ponds on Friday hopefully and then it's out for a jolly pond plant buying session so I expect a good long list of wildlife friendly pond plants ......by Thursday evening if you could manage it please everybodypeeps.... ..and I may have started something wonderful but now I got to actually do it...gulp. |
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 20, 2007 22:06:07 GMT 1
Thought I'd lost this photo - it just went somewhere it shouldn't! It gives you some idea of the scale though  |
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Post by sweetleaf on Feb 20, 2007 22:20:18 GMT 1
I know it will look brilliant! Pond plants .....you need madon and The witch oh sorry sleepy as well ! Im not qualified on that really except to say oxygenating plants will keep the water from going green, canadian pond weed is cheap, £1 a bunch, and you just chuck it in. ;DI have a waterlily, dont know the names of most of the others!(shameful)  |
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 20, 2007 22:30:07 GMT 1
The thing is, it's not difficult to make a wildlife garden look good is it?!? I'm not sure how best to fill the ponds even - it might take MONTHS to fill naturally, but if I use tapwater will it be bad for the plants etc? So many questions........  |
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Post by sweetleaf on Feb 20, 2007 22:35:24 GMT 1
If you fill it with tapwater you can wait,and the chemicals leave or become inert after a specific time, or put in a water conditioner, so the tapwater does no harm.I do know that much!
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 20, 2007 22:51:47 GMT 1
I'll have to go sweet talk the GC aquatic man - p'raps I'll take a young mother with a big chest to see if we can get some freebies from him! What's a water conditioner? Is it chemical? It's times like this one realise how little one knows about pond life...........I really have to get it right though - can't have my kids dipping hopelessly in a dead pond can I? Unless I'm doing a lesson about global warming....
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Post by sweetleaf on Feb 20, 2007 22:53:45 GMT 1
Hang on Ill grab The witch!
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 20, 2007 23:03:11 GMT 1
Can't, gotta go to bed now...night X
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Post by The witch on Feb 20, 2007 23:57:25 GMT 1
Mmm....thinks...... not easy at my age and at this time of night.....but........ I would recommend filling the ponds with rainwater, if possible. As far as I'm aware water conditioner is only really needed when using tap water for topping up a pond containing fish. I must add that I have never had a wildlife pond in the true sense, although my pond does contain wildlife. Water conditioner gets rid of chlorine, which, as you will no doubt know kills germs, but it will also kill good bacteria in ponds and pond filters. When fish wee, there is a reaction between the ammonia and chlorine which is bad news for fish. Tap water could be used, of course for the initial filling as the chlorine will disperse after about 24 hours Plants..... ponders (no pun intended) .......... how deep will the ponds be? Will there be any planting shelves? Different plants require different planting depths. Planting baskets could of course be raised on bricks. Don't be surprised if the pond water turns to a lovely pea green in the spring, it is quite normal - in fact I think I may be right in saying that tadpoles will love it.  Once the water has had chance to mature for about 2 weeks, if using tap water, less if rainwater, you could then add some mud from the bottom of an established pond which would give your ponds a great kick start too. The mud will/should contain lots of micro organisms and if you are lucky quite a few other little beasties like water lice, have a look at this link. As the ponds will be raised consideration needs to be given as to how frogs will get in and out - also little froglets won't like having to crawl/hop over hot concrete in the summer on route to the surrounding borders etc.  |
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Post by Sleepy on Feb 21, 2007 0:00:16 GMT 1
I initially filled mine with tap water and waited for the wildlife to move in. I never had any problems. But I would wait a few days before you put fish in. Personally I can't abide fish in a pond - I like nature to take over - frogs, newts, dragonflys, beetles, etc.
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Post by The witch on Feb 21, 2007 0:10:35 GMT 1
A wildlife pond shouldn't have fish in it really Sleepy |
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Post by Sleepy on Feb 21, 2007 0:26:45 GMT 1
Exactly ;D
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Post by The witch on Feb 21, 2007 0:33:32 GMT 1
Pond Plants - Deep water Aquatics: Aponogeton - Water Hawthorn - planting depth 1 - 2 foot Nymphoides - Water Fringe - planting depth 1 - 2 foot Floaters: Hydrocharis - Frog-bit Stratiotes aloides - Water Soldier - they only float in the summer Oxygenators: Ceratophyllium demersum - Hornwort, drop in weighted cuttings Elodea canadesis - Canadian Pondweed, very efficient, but can take over Myriophyllum - Parrot's Feather Potamogeton crispus - Pondweed not invasive Ranunculus aquatilis - Water buttercup Marginals: Calla palustris - Bog Arum Caltha - Marsh Marigold Houttuynia - can be invasive Lobellia cardinalis Menyanthes - Bog Bean - can be invasive Mentha aquatica - Water Mint - can be invasive Myosotis - Water Forget-me-not Sagittaria - Arrowhead (I have common arrowhead in my pond) I must admit that I haven't grown all of the above  Are you planning on having a bog garden, too? |
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 21, 2007 8:06:40 GMT 1
Ooh, you're lovely, you lot! I rushed to get on here this morning cos I knew you'd give me lots of info - thanks very much (I think I'm completely perked)! First of all I am definitely not having any fish at all. I don't think they really go in a wild life pond certainly not one with no flowing fresh water and not with lots of kids about! I've always been slightly concerned about the access for creatures but I have no choice about it being a raised environment - H&S rules and a school insurance claims don't give a lot of leeway. I'm not sure until I've constructed them but they should be at least 24" tall and I'm hoping that when they're ready some brilliant scheme will leap into my head about a ramp, a pile of bricks and an aquaduct! I don't think I'll be allowed a bog garden but I shall accidentally leave an area which would be ideal close to the ponds.... When I made my pond I just waded into the river and pinched a pile of plants with attached wildlife so that's my scheme now except smallest will do the wading! The entire aim though is to provide the kids with material to dip into and learn about so I really want to have as natural a pond as possible. We have our magnifying glasses, dipping trays and long nets already! I REALLY wish I didn't have to go to work as I NEED to get building.......more pictures (post construction hopefully on Friday).
Thanks SOOOO much for all your thoughts, especially that extremely helpful list The witch.
Oh, one more question - is it all right to put ordinary housebricks in? Won't the salts leach out ....? I could find some concrete blocks if necessary.
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Post by The witch on Feb 21, 2007 9:24:19 GMT 1
I meant to say earlier that the site for your wildlife garden is much larger than I imagined  House bricks will be fine, but engineering bricks would be even better. I think concrete/breeze blocks may well leach all manner of chemicals into the water and will probably break up in time as I don't think they are designed to be in contact with water 24/7. Do the ponds have a preform or liner? Bog gardens are just area's of very moist soil BTW 4P Could I suggest a pile of logs as a ramp, as it would also act as a mini nature reserve too. www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/wildbritain/gardenwildlife/myspace/content.shtml?20 |
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Post by plocket on Feb 21, 2007 10:14:15 GMT 1
I think you've got a lot of hard work ahead of you 4P, but that you are more than capable. Not only that you will get so much pleasure out of what you and the children achieve. The school have been very generous to let you have such a big space but your ideas are fabulous. I'm desperate to see what you do next, and hear what ideas the children have too. Please keep us posted - this is such an exciting project.
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 21, 2007 10:32:35 GMT 1
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Post by sweetleaf on Feb 21, 2007 10:42:11 GMT 1
These are your next conquest areas arent they ? Is the school in on the secret? ;D Just kidding! I meant to ask, where is the greenhouse? Have you found volunteers to help build it yet, and where will it be sited relative to the pond area?  btw you deserve a medal, but theres no smiley for that!  did you add more text after I posted this or wasnt I properly awake? |
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Post by madonplants on Feb 21, 2007 11:28:23 GMT 1
Sorry I came in late. I have only built inground wildlife ponds, so I think the problem will be, as The witch says, getting the good wildlife to come to the pond and safely leave again. Diving beetle and the like will fly over and you will get dragonflies if you have tall plants for them to lay eggs on and somewhere for the emerging adults todry off before they fly off for the first time. As The witch asked what will the ponds be made of and how deep will they be, including shelves? Wildlife need to feel protected from predators to come and breed in a pond. If possible can you build a sort of inpond bog garden. I know what i want to say, but putting it in words is hard. Can you section a part of each of the ponds off, with bricks, and in fill with aquatic compost and then top off with fist aquatic gravel then different sizes of pebbles? This area, including the pebbles need to have a little bit of water over the top of them with maybe a few above water. This is so birds can come and drink and wildlife can get out if they do get in. Then somehow build a sloping raised bed up to the pond? Again, I can see what I want to say, but putting it into words is hard. Maybe I could have a play in paint! You could use a few tiered sections to finish at the same level as the pond. Then use a ramp up to each level. Make sure this is planted well, to again give wildlife protection. Don't worry about filling with tap water, after 48 hours the chlorine will have dissipated. I remember the pond I built here last year, for the fish I brought with me. After a couple of days there was all kinds of life in it. If you can use rainwater to top up, that would be OK. If not could you install in inline chrorine filter. The tub I dug in the ground to save a few pond plants I bought with me, was filled with tap water and within two days it had two frogs in it. Wildlife will come to your pond when THEY want to. At each access point to the pond make sure it is fairly well planted, so again frogs and toads feel safe. I hope this helps a bit and will have a go with paint to see if I can draw what I am trying to say. Keith |
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Post by The witch on Feb 21, 2007 13:30:32 GMT 1
4P - you will need to put something between the concrete base and the liner, a 2" layer of soft builders sand would be ideal. This will help protect the butyl liner being punctured. A layer of pond underlay or old carpet above the sand will provide an additional protection. |
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 21, 2007 18:07:30 GMT 1
Lots to think about above - thanks Keith. I shall be able to plan something for a safe access when we've got the ponds in situ I hope. I'm not sure if we'll have room for an inpond bog area but I might be able to sink something inside the biggest pond made of plastic for example with more soil in - would that work? If the edge was just slightly above the water level perhaps. The smaller ponds are only about 18" deep so I may be able to position them so there is a passage through all three ponds to the ground via a planted ramp with stones edging it. It's hard to visualise isn't it? I shall post some halfway through construction pictures ....
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Post by seanmckinney on Feb 21, 2007 18:55:01 GMT 1
Sorry, for an opening post I dont think this will be a popular one. Personally if the area is supposed to house wildlife pond/s I would remove the concrete pad or, a large proportion of the centre of it leaving just a ring or "collar" Why, for the following reasons 1) to get any safe depth of water, 18" to 2', the ponds will have to be quite tall and if the walls are vertical then, IMO, they are difficult for adult amphibians to scale and, more significantly, for young amphibians to descend 2) exposed, hot, dry concrete and brickwork is like glue to the skin of young amphibians. Their skin sticks to it and they dehydrate and die VERY QUICKLY. I have seen them stick within two hops on hot dry concrete and the only way to release them was to soak the concrete. 3) I suspect such a layout will give rise to very cold water in winter and possible very warm water in summer, I also think the temperature changes will be rapid which is not a good idea. IMO whilst semi raising a pond is a GOOD idea I think they should only be semi raised, not entirely raised. Semi raising prevents problems with a) "liner ballooning" which is associated with high local water tables and b) "run off" I would suggest that you forget the idea of 3 smallish wildlife ponds and go for one larger one. The conditions in a single large pond should be more stable than in a three small ponds. A bigger pond also gives you the chance to get a greater depth of water with out proportionally huge changes in depth and the associated liner folding problems. I would suggest you dig a hole somewhere over 18" deep and use the digging spoil to raise a levee around the hole. The liner is laid over the levee and filled with water to bring the level within the pond above the original ground level. The levee can have a gentle slope on its outward face and be turfed over. Ideally the water wants to be as near to overflowing as is possible as that leaves the least amount of "freeboard" for animals trying to get out of the pond to climb. In my first attempt at the edge of my wild life pond I laid the liner over the levee and turfed over the levee and liner. I cut 1"sq holes in the liner flaps about every 5" or so for the turf to root through into the underlying ground and covered the liner flaps hessien which reached into the water to wick water up to the turf whilst the root systems were growing. This worked very well, too well infact, and I always got wet knees whilst kneeling at the pond edge. I got fed up with this and lifted the liner flaps and laid them up the front of, over the top of and down the back of, a thin vertical board running around the pond. The turf was butted up to the back of the board. No wet knees and the edge of the pond is more level, however the board is a bit flexible and I may eventually replace it with 2" concrete flag stones cut to a 'knife edge' along their upper edge. Re a collar, depending on the stability of the underlying ground a ring of concrete, or collar, around the edge of the pond may be a good idea to prevent edge collapses if your ground is soft or weak. If you kept a collar I would build the levee on top of it and make the levee at least 6" deep right out to original soil so that it would hopefully self water from the out lying ground. I boobed in my wild life pond and planted everything loose in soil on the shelves and bottom, this is fine for most plants but the root systems of things like Typha latifolia run riot if planted loose If you use the likes of that plant also collect the seed heads before they 'burst' and burn them or seal them for flower decorations. I just used ordinary soil and until the plants became established I had blanket weed city in the pond, since the plants became established I havent had ANY blanket weed worth mentioning DO NOT stock a wildlife pond with goldfish or koi, stickle backs and minnows are fine. Plants DO NOT add azolla, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_fernaustrailian stone crop (crassula) www.english-nature.org.uk/news/story.asp?ID=379Quite honestly I dont think the water source matters providing it is allowed to mature before plants are added. Fish can be added some considerble time later, say 1 month. If you can I would store and mature water before hand and those round paddling pools with inflatable collars are great and relatively speaking quite cheap, £50 or £60 fromm B&Q for 600? UK gall. DO NOT use paddling pools with inflatable walls, they arent stable. Whilst building my fish pond I set up 6 1 ton builders delivery bags lined with cheap plastic and held up by a light wooden frame to mature water, I even kept fish in them. |
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Post by 4pygmies on Feb 21, 2007 19:54:52 GMT 1
Hi Sean, I don't mind you telling me what you think at all! I do understand your reservations about the nature of our wildlife ponds but I have had very little choice about quite a big chunk of it, the concrete pad for example. That was to keep it in line with Health and Safety. I was actually advised by the wildlife section of a local Nature Reserve and Bird Sanctuary to have separate ponds. They have very successful raised dipping ponds with slightly different habitats in each. And as for the fact that they are raised I'm afraid that was specified by the headmistress at the outset. She was worried about safety and thought that raised beds were easy for the smaller children to use.
I will bridge the concrete for small amphibians by building some sort of ramp and I intend to provide access in and out with large pebbles. The garden itself has already got well established hedges all round it and I am intending to plant one large area to the side so that there will be no small human feet anywhere near so there will be shade and safety within easy reach of the ponds. The concrete path will also serve a reminder to the kids that the grass areas are not to be walked on very often. As the garden will only be used by small groups of supervised children and will be locked at other times I hope the disturbance will be kept to a minimum. I believe this is an important lesson for children to learn anyway.
Btw there will not be any fish in the ponds. It will be planted with native plants only and these will be in baskets for easy maintainance. I appreciate your thoughts - keep posting , do!
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