sweetleafs pond

[sweetleaf]

Two problems with this pond, the first being subsidence and the second is a total lack of frogs

I think taking the top layer of sleeper off will cure both problems, I can level it, and make it more accessible to wildlife, taking off both layers would not be feasible as the garden slopes toward the neighbours (I live on a fairly steep hill, which is terraced... although the google earth images dont show this clearly I am almost at the top of the hill. Heavy rain takes my soil to my neighbours garden,

I plan to begin this week-end as soon as I can organise the troops, as I cant lift the sleepers alone Photos will be forthcoming ;D

[Sleepy]

But, it's a raised pond Sweetie. How are frogs supposed to get in or out? It needs to be flush, or almost flush with the ground. And a shallow area for hedgehogs to climb out should they fall in.

[sweetleaf]

Thats why I started this thread Sleepy I need advice!

[Sleepy]

sweetleaf said:

Thats why I started this thread Sleepy I need advice!

That's what I was giving Sweetie

[The witch]

I'm sure Sean would know what to do with regard to your pond not being level SL I would guess that it has subsided because of the weight of the water.

Can you build a log pile against one of your pond sides for the frogs to use?

BTW you don't use slug pellets do you?

[sweetleaf]

Never used them The witch never will, dont trust chemicals of any sort.

I have a rock pile against the fence side of the pond, and I did get one frog this year, but there was a better party next door but one so it made its excuses and left

[The witch]

Rocks get too hot and dry IMO SL - logs would be better.

[madonplants]

S/L, is there any chance you could soften the edges around the pond with more plants that maybe could overhang the pond? Choice of plant(s) is upto you, but things like large ferns, rodgersia or fatsia japonica would help. Obviously it has to go with your present scheme. Don't worry about too many rocks, frogs will still use a pond. They just need to feel safe getting in and out of it.
See below the pond we inherited from our last house...



When I 'cleared it out' after finding Lucky our golden orfe, I found 17 frogs!!
What plants, especially oxygenating ones, do you have in the pond? I think maybe more plants, would help make frogs feel more at home. I have always used Ceratophyllum, which tadpoles seem to love. How old is the pond? When you top up the water, do you use rainwater? Do I remember correctly, the pond is 4ft deep? Then taking off a row of sleepers shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Hope some of this helps.

Keith

[sweetleaf]

Thanks Keith ;D
yes you are right the pond is over 4ft deep.
I have Canadian pond weed as oxygenator...... it seems to be rampant , I may have to pull a lot out !

I will crack on with it as soon as my back stops whinging, I would have loved to have it like yours, but as I say the garden slopes toward the neighbours house,
I have tried to level it but lose the soil (to next door it seems) after heavy rain I topped up the pond with rainwater last summer but we have had loads of rain of late and I havent seen the need to add more water, as on the sunken side it runs straight off .......

[madonplants]

Just remember, when we moved here, 11 months ago, there wasn't a pond. I 'quickly' built a fish pond 16ft by 2.5ft by 8ft to take my 3 comets and lucky that I found at that previous pond. The pond atm, sits in the middle of grass, no cover, no log pile and this year the frogs have been going mad in it, much to my surprise. I heard them a week ago going mad and I counted at least 5 and some spawn as well! More has come over this last week. As it is netted quite well, I wondered how they got in, must be a gap somewhere! I do have a Heron Halt wire system that will go in when it is finally completed (waterfall and filter, if we stay) so the netting is a temporary measure, as I have been told a heron is about by a neighbour.
So if I can get frogs, so can you!!
Anyway, wife wants to go to bed, so need to stop. Will catch up tomorrow!
BTW the canadian pond weed is OK and should be thinned out in September.

Keith

[seanmckinney]

Sweetloaf, I wouldnt lower it, my suggestion would be just ramp soil up around the sleepers and turf over the soil, B&Q sell turf that is or was on a par, price wise, with our local stuff.
I would also suggest the pond is run fuller, ie add water, there's a fair bit of free board showing. The frogs may realise that the youngsters would have a struggle to get out.

What is the decorative wood coping around the top and has it been treated? If it has been treated would the treatment be putting frogs off or contaminating the water?

If you like the soil ramp and turf idea then I have another suggestion, .....if you have enough surplus liner........, remove the decorative wooden coping and patch any/each nail holes with a bit of "double sided liner seaming tape" and a 1" square of liner scrap. Pull back the liner to expose the top of the top sleepers and on top of those sleepers nail a 3/4" to 1" deep batton around the outer edge of the sleeper to create a lip. Replace the liner so that it goes over the batton and then either add soil or gravel to the new shelf and seed it with moss fragments etc. Add water to raise the water level until the new shallow shelf is flooded, combined with the turfed outer ramp the shallow shoaling shoreline should make the pond more attractive to frogs.

Re the subsidence, what subsidence? If it's the sides collapsing reducing the depth may well increase the likely hood of further collapses. When the pond water is above the water table the liner is pushed outwards helping to support the soil, the higher the pond water is above the water table the greater the outward force. That said if you have a waterlogged broken clay soil then you may only get stability by sloping the sides, that is one reason why my fish pond has a concrete shell, it went in into broken clay and I wanted vertical sides.

Last autumn I had an blockage in the plumbing associated with the plant pond and the consequence was that the water was pumped out of that pond and seeped under the liner lifting the liner. I corrected the problem as soon as I saw the problem but last week I noticed that this lifting of the liner had allowed the sand layer in the soil around that pond to collaspe. I am not sure if I can 'easily' repair the slippage as the liner is connected to in the ground plumbing.


I have just seen "the pond is over 4ft deep", how tall are your soil walls in the hole dug for the pond? I assume its a semi raised pond rather than a wholely above ground pond.

[sweetleaf]

Sean, I originally dug the pond 3ft6" and added two sleepers around the edge to raise the sides and level it... the soil subsided on one side and the two sleepers on the one side sank in the soil leaving me with a water level which overflows on that side but leaves free board as you say on the other three sides. The garden is very,very small and I have very little room around the pond, banking up soil would leave me nowhere to walk!
I bought untreated wood for the pond surround as I was aware of the poisoning effect, OH wasnt impressed but I insisted it would last quite a long time even untreated, and it has weathered in quite well.

The soil below the pond sides is in strata at the bottom of the hole it is clay further up its quite sandy, I assume this is because the plot the house sits on was excavated from the side of a hill, The rest of the garden is similar, I come across pockets of clay you could make a dinner service out of if I dig deep enough. :

[seanmckinney]

Ah ok, in that case I would think about removing the sleepers completely and permanently OR bed ONE layer in a trench. Either way soil, compacted as it is laid, can be used to level the edge of the pond, either under the sleepers in the trench or laid on top of the existing ground.
I would still try to make it slightly rasied, at least above the existing low point ground level but preferably by an inch or so above the 'high' pond of the existing soil edge, as that would ensure no liner ballooning.
In either case, one layer of sleepers or none, the external ramp required would not be wide and shouldnt cramp your space any.

Why put sleepers in a trench? They would give you a solid weight distribution edge.

I assume the sleepers ARE treated and should resist rotting.
If you use sleepers I would suggest you think about the shallow shelf idea I mentioned above. It can visually make a huge difference to the size of the pond as well as providing easy escape roots for aninmals. If you have a look at my fish pond, the one with the block walls you will see that the water covers about 6" of the walls 9" width and it really does increase the visual size of the pond.

[sweetleaf]

Lots of good Ideas Sean! I think you are right, I will make my plans and do it over the next week or so, it will be messy, but as there is nothing happening in the pond at the moment I wont be disturbing any wildlife. Watch this space, bearing in mind of course the weather I should have something to show within a week.

[seanmckinney]

Incidently do you know what a water hose level is, I saw the some good and clear instructions for making a multi point on on an american board, I'll see if I can dig them up!

[sweetleaf]

Thanks Sean ;D

[sweetleaf]

Things were looking very bad....gallons of water have washed into the borders and I was wondering if I should have decided to do this on my own...






I levelled the pond by putting paviours and compacted soil under the lowest sleepers and removing the top ones altogether, the pond has been lowered by about 9" and the top has been levelled





The last pic makes it look lop sided .....its not, its just my terrible camera work ;D
But thats not all.....more pics tomorrow.

[madonplants]

Looking better, Sweetie. Can't wait to see more pictures!

Keith

[The witch]

Well done Sweetleaf, looks much better now

[debbiem]

Looking good! I can see no reason whatsover why the frogs won't come along and colonize it.

[Sleepy]

But that won't be until next February now though. Of course you can do it by hand.

NO, I didn't mean that Sweetie... I meant that you can get tadpoles from another pond and add them to yours

[sweetleaf]

[4pygmies]

AHA! Pond pics. It looks great Sweetie. I wish my pond was bigger. It's hidden from all the kids so I never get to see it either! It will look even better wheb everything's grown up. No wonder you're tired messing about in that...

[plocket]

I'm afraid I can't see the difference - it looks great in all the pictures according to my untrained eye!!!

[sweetleaf]

2 frogs in the pond today!